possibility of making wxMaxima the default GUI (instead of Xmaxima)

[Robert Dodier]

hello,

i wonder if anyone is in favor of making wxMaxima (http://wxmaxima.sf.net)
the default GUI instead of Xmaxima.

i think wxMaxima has the following going for it --
it is easier to find a function (labelled buttons and menus
organized thematically), the help system is better integrated,
it is quite a lot more polished, and it is an active project.

i have asked the wxMaxima project leader (andrej vodopivec)
about this and he says he thinks wxMaxima is mature enough
to be the default GUI for maxima.

anyway, i wonder what you-all think about that.

robert dodier

[Peter Gustafson]

I periodically use wxMaxima vs 0.6.4 and find it to be a useful tool
when I desire a more intelligible output of a longer function. It has
some stability issues on amd64 running gentoo linux, but in general I
think it a good future direction for a gui. It, of course, consumes some
overhead for parsing the output and displaying it. For what is it worth,
I like it better than the default gui but still only use it less than
25% of the time.

Pete Gustafson

Post by Robert Dodier
hello,
i wonder if anyone is in favor of making wxMaxima (http://wxmaxima.sf.net)
the default GUI instead of Xmaxima.
i think wxMaxima has the following going for it --
it is easier to find a function (labelled buttons and menus
organized thematically), the help system is better integrated,
it is quite a lot more polished, and it is an active project.
i have asked the wxMaxima project leader (andrej vodopivec)
about this and he says he thinks wxMaxima is mature enough
to be the default GUI for maxima.
anyway, i wonder what you-all think about that.
robert dodier
_______________________________________________
Maxima mailing list
http://www.math.utexas.edu/mailman/listinfo/maxima

[Miguel Marco]

Post by Robert Dodier
hello,
i wonder if anyone is in favor of making wxMaxima (http://wxmaxima.sf.net)
the default GUI instead of Xmaxima.

I would be in favor. wxMaxima is definitely more eye-candi than Xmaxima. And
that is a big plus when you try to use software in a classroom, for example.
Plus, i agree it's generally easyer to use.

But there is a feature of Xmaxima that i like too: the possibility to write a
HTML document with the explanation of an exercise and the commands to run in
maxima by a click (i know i haven't explained too well, but i think you know
what i mean). I think it is a great idea for a classroom again.
Another thing i would miss in wxMaxima is the possibility to change something
in the output to run it again, just like in Maple, Mathematica, or Texmacs.

Maybe it would be possible to use both the code of Xmaxima and wxMaxima to do
a more complete GUI.

But if it is too complicated to do, i would definitely vote for wxMaxima over
Xmaxima.


Miguel Angel Marco Buzunariz.
Departamento de matematicas.
Universidad de Zaragoza.

[Marco Ciampa]

Post by Miguel Marco

Post by Robert Dodier
hello,
i wonder if anyone is in favor of making wxMaxima (http://wxmaxima.sf.net)
the default GUI instead of Xmaxima.

I would be in favor. wxMaxima is definitely more eye-candi than Xmaxima. And
that is a big plus when you try to use software in a classroom, for example.
Plus, i agree it's generally easyer to use.

And easier to translate! Thanks to the use of standard .po files for the
strings (by the way it is already translated in Italian).

I definitely agree.

[Vadim V. Zhytnikov]

Post by Miguel Marco
But there is a feature of Xmaxima that i like too: the possibility to write a
HTML document with the explanation of an exercise and the commands to run in
maxima by a click (i know i haven't explained too well, but i think you know
what i mean). I think it is a great idea for a classroom again.
Another thing i would miss in wxMaxima is the possibility to change something
in the output to run it again, just like in Maple, Mathematica, or Texmacs.

Yes, I understand that you mean. In fact Xmaxima lower
html-browser window is in fact the only _real_ nice thing
in whole system. It is not only html with active Maxima
expressions. It also can serve as source-level Maxima
code debugger. Although hardly use or even know this
feature.

[Barton Willis]

Post by Robert Dodier
hello,
i wonder if anyone is in favor of making wxMaxima

(http://wxmaxima.sf.net)

Post by Robert Dodier
the default GUI instead of Xmaxima.

When I use a GUI (including class demonstrations), I use wxMaxima. I've
never messed with the Xmaxima HTML document feature that Miguel mentioned,

so maybe I don't know what I'm missing. Generally, my students
favor wxMaxima over Xmaxima, but maybe that's only because I use wxMaxima
in class.

At least on my elderly office machine, wxMaxima 0.62 does struggle
(100% CPU usage) with run_testsuite(true,true), but it does finish.

In short, it would be OK with me to make wxMaxima the default. I'm
assuming we'd keep Xmaxima in the distribution for as long as it works.

Barton

By the way, wxMaxima version 0.62 does report some error messages
about the generated XML when it runs run_testsuite(true,true); maybe
0.64 fixes these bugs?

[Andrej Vodopivec]

Post by Barton Willis
By the way, wxMaxima version 0.62 does report some error messages
about the generated XML when it runs run_testsuite(true,true); maybe
0.64 fixes these bugs?

Not yet - but they are fixed in cvs.

Andrej

[Richard Fateman]

In TK Maxima, typing 20000!;
gives an answer.

In wxMaxima 0.6.4
I get
<<Expression to long to display! >>

[That should probably be "Expression too long to display!"]
or if the edit-configure-setting is to show long expressions, it seems
to me to be a very long blank.


I am used to typing my own right parentheses and seeing the
matching one blink (as in emacs lisp mode). Skipping
over the one inserted in the input-line seems strange,
so I suppose I should set that configuration option.
Still, the matching paren should blink.


It would be nice if you can have a plot and not have to kill it in order
to continue input, but maybe I'm just using it wrong.

It would be nice to have other symbols, like alpha, beta, etc.
but TK Maxima doesn't do that either. I don't know what
checking Greek does, but maybe I should read a manual!

Anyway, none of these issues is, to me, critical.

RJF

[C Y]

I would definitely vote to do this - wxmaxima might still have flaws,
but so does xmaxima, and I think of the two work put into wxmaxima will
have the greater long term benefit.

CY

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[Andrej Vodopivec]

Post by Richard Fateman
In TK Maxima, typing 20000!;
gives an answer.
In wxMaxima 0.6.4
I get
<<Expression to long to display! >>
[That should probably be "Expression too long to display!"]
or if the edit-configure-setting is to show long expressions, it seems
to me to be a very long blank.

For your example Maple displays some digits at the begining, then [x
digits] and then some digits at the end of the number. I guess that
could be a reasonable thing to do with long numbers.

Post by Richard Fateman
I am used to typing my own right parentheses and seeing the
matching one blink (as in emacs lisp mode). Skipping
over the one inserted in the input-line seems strange,
so I suppose I should set that configuration option.
Still, the matching paren should blink.

Matching parentheses in the input line only works on windows. Even
there I'm not sure how much styles the control supports.

Post by Richard Fateman
It would be nice if you can have a plot and not have to kill it in order
to continue input, but maybe I'm just using it wrong.
It would be nice to have other symbols, like alpha, beta, etc.
but TK Maxima doesn't do that either. I don't know what
checking Greek does, but maybe I should read a manual!

wxmaxima uses %alpha, %Alpha... for greek characters. I don't remember
why I decided for % prefix - I guess because maxima uses %pi, %gamma,
%phi for constants.

Andrej

[Joel Salomon]

Post by Andrej Vodopivec

Post by Richard Fateman
It would be nice to have other symbols, like alpha, beta, etc.
but TK Maxima doesn't do that either. I don't know what
checking Greek does, but maybe I should read a manual!

wxmaxima uses %alpha, %Alpha... for greek characters. I don't remember
why I decided for % prefix - I guess because maxima uses %pi, %gamma,
%phi for constants.

I'd actually prefer that the contant %gamma not be identical to the
displayed greek gamma γ; the current set-up confused me when I was
trying to play with NMR equations that use γ as a variable.

--Joel

[Ronald Crummett]

I think it's a great idea. I think my favorite feature of wxMaxima is
the more natural looking output (as opposed to ------ for a fraction
bar, for example).

----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Dodier <***@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, March 24, 2006 7:40 am
Subject: [Maxima] possibility of making wxMaxima the default GUI
(instead of Xmaxima)

Post by Robert Dodier
hello,
i wonder if anyone is in favor of making wxMaxima
(http://wxmaxima.sf.net)the default GUI instead of Xmaxima.
i think wxMaxima has the following going for it --
it is easier to find a function (labelled buttons and menus
organized thematically), the help system is better integrated,
it is quite a lot more polished, and it is an active project.
i have asked the wxMaxima project leader (andrej vodopivec)
about this and he says he thinks wxMaxima is mature enough
to be the default GUI for maxima.
anyway, i wonder what you-all think about that.
robert dodier
_______________________________________________
Maxima mailing list
http://www.math.utexas.edu/mailman/listinfo/maxima

[van Nek]

I vote against !!!

Hello Robert,
from my actual point of knowledge about and experience with wxmaxima I must vote
against having wxmaxima as the default gui.

reasoning:
+++ The great advantage of wxmaxima is, that it helps users to get the right input.

- - - The headache I have at the moment is concerning the output format of wxmaxima.
I use xmaxima in my classes and my students copy the input and output lines from
xmaxima to ms word. By using Lucida as font for instance the output with exponents
and fractions is nicely displayed. In exame tests this must happen in a very short time
and doing it just by copy and paste fits our needs. The students have to write a lot of
comments in between the maxima lines. In ms word or open office this is easy to do.

With wxmaxima copy and paste is not possible (?). The output is available in html
format and then saved in png graphics. I don't believe, that all my students ( I must say
that for a lot of students their work with maxima is their first contact with a computer )
are able to work with this format. Maybe this is possible in a wysiwyg html editor like
frontpage. But in any case one has to learn some additional methods to work with the
wxmaxima output.
I don't want to think about latex output in this context. Perhaps there are other
possibilities that I don't know. I am open to learn ...

Perhaps we can ask Andrej to make it additionally possible to have the xmaxima output
format into a text file. The functions for this should be all there.

Volker van Nek

[Mario Rodriguez]

Post by van Nek
Perhaps we can ask Andrej to make it additionally possible to have the xmaxima output
format into a text file. The functions for this should be all there.

I'm not a regular wxmaxima user, but I'm in favor of including wxmaxima
in the maxima project since it's much nicer than xmaxima and easier to
input expressions.

But I also agree with Volker in the sense that it's a good idea to be
able to copy and paste text formatted maxima output to a text editor.


- A command-lined maxima user

[Juan Pablo Romero Bernal]

Hi all,

Post by Mario Rodriguez
I'm not a regular wxmaxima user, but I'm in favor of including wxmaxima
in the maxima project since it's much nicer than xmaxima and easier to
input expressions.
But I also agree with Volker in the sense that it's a good idea to be
able to copy and paste text formatted maxima output to a text editor.

I had worked with Maxima from command line, because is fast and easy, but
from my point view the adequate interface to use Maxima (to get a formatted
maxima output) is TeXmacs. However, I aggre with Mario in the posibility to
include the wxMaxima interface into proyect (and other interfaces iMaxima,
Xmaxima, etc,.) and the user take a decision to use any interface.


Bye,


--
Juan Pablo Romero Bernal
Grupo Linux Universidad Distrital
Universidad Distrital - Distrital University
Bogotá - Colombia


Visita el sitio web de Software Libre en Colombia:
http://www.el-directorio.org

[Valery Pipin]

Hi,

I think that the choice of default gui for maxima is crucial only for windows
users. Let's they decide. On linux we are able to use all interfaces. I'm
personally think that emacs-maxima-mode is the best interface. For the output
to latex again emaxima and of course texmacs that give a widely choice of
output formats.
Currently, wxmaxima, perhaps is the best for beginners and for casual use.
However, the user need a good editor (e.g., syntax highlighting and etc) to
write a program. Is there any plan to develop wxmaxima in this direction?
Also, I think that including wxmaxima to the maxima project will help to
develop this promising interface further.

all the best

Valery

[Andrej Vodopivec]

Post by Valery Pipin
I think that the choice of default gui for maxima is crucial only for windows
users. Let's they decide. On linux we are able to use all interfaces. I'm
personally think that emacs-maxima-mode is the best interface. For the output
to latex again emaxima and of course texmacs that give a widely choice of
output formats.
Currently, wxmaxima, perhaps is the best for beginners and for casual use.
However, the user need a good editor (e.g., syntax highlighting and etc) to
write a program. Is there any plan to develop wxmaxima in this direction?
Also, I think that including wxmaxima to the maxima project will help to
develop this promising interface further.

Just a comment on text editors on Windows: the Crimson text editor
(www.crimsoneditor.com) is a nice free editor which includes syntax
highlighting for maxima. I have recently started using ConTEXT editor
(also free, www.context.cx) and I can provide syntax highlighting
support for it if anyone wants it.

Andrej

[Marco Ciampa]

Post by Valery Pipin
Hi,
I think that the choice of default gui for maxima is crucial only for windows
users. Let's they decide. On linux we are able to use all interfaces. I'm
personally think that emacs-maxima-mode is the best interface. For the output
to latex again emaxima and of course texmacs that give a widely choice of
output formats.

This actually is _not_ a problem since in Linux usually (for example in
Debian and derivates) maxima / xmaxima / wxmaxima are separate packages
and it should not change (IMHO).

bye

[Andrej Vodopivec]

Post by van Nek
I vote against !!!
Hello Robert,
from my actual point of knowledge about and experience with wxmaxima I must vote
against having wxmaxima as the default gui.
+++ The great advantage of wxmaxima is, that it helps users to get the right input.
- - - The headache I have at the moment is concerning the output format of wxmaxima.
I use xmaxima in my classes and my students copy the input and output lines from
xmaxima to ms word. By using Lucida as font for instance the output with exponents
and fractions is nicely displayed. In exame tests this must happen in a very short time
and doing it just by copy and paste fits our needs. The students have to write a lot of
comments in between the maxima lines. In ms word or open office this is easy to do.
With wxmaxima copy and paste is not possible (?). The output is available in html
format and then saved in png graphics. I don't believe, that all my students ( I must say
that for a lot of students their work with maxima is their first contact with a computer )
are able to work with this format. Maybe this is possible in a wysiwyg html editor like
frontpage. But in any case one has to learn some additional methods to work with the
wxmaxima output.
I don't want to think about latex output in this context. Perhaps there are other
possibilities that I don't know. I am open to learn ...

Since you mention ms word I assume you use MS Windows in class. You
can copy the output from wxMaxima using 'Edit->Copy as image' and
paste it into Word. You will get an image in your document which looks
like the png file in HTML export.

Andrej

[van Nek]

Post by Andrej Vodopivec
Since you mention ms word I assume you use MS Windows in class. You
can copy the output from wxMaxima using 'Edit->Copy as image' and
paste it into Word. You will get an image in your document which looks
like the png file in HTML export.

Hello Andrej,
I would definitely prefer text output. This is the easiest and most flexible to edit and format.
Isn't this possible?
All the best
Volker

[Andrej Vodopivec]

Post by van Nek
Hello Andrej,
I would definitely prefer text output. This is the easiest and most flexible to edit and format.
Isn't this possible?
All the best
Volker

Well I don't want to have another formating algorithm just for copying
in ascii 2d. I guess I could add an option to display ascii 2d as is
produced by maxima and then you could copy that.

Andrej

[Ron Crummett]

You know, as long as we're having this discussion, I think it would be
great, if, at all possible, to remove the % prefix on other constants,
such as e and i. No big deal if not, it just looks a little "clunky"
sometimes.

-Ron

Post by Andrej Vodopivec

Post by van Nek
Hello Andrej,
I would definitely prefer text output. This is the easiest and most flexible to edit and format.
Isn't this possible?
All the best
Volker

Well I don't want to have another formating algorithm just for copying
in ascii 2d. I guess I could add an option to display ascii 2d as is
produced by maxima and then you could copy that.
Andrej
_______________________________________________
Maxima mailing list
http://www.math.utexas.edu/mailman/listinfo/maxima

[Stavros Macrakis]

Post by Ron Crummett
You know, as long as we're having this discussion, I think it would be
great, if, at all possible, to remove the % prefix on other constants,
such as e and i. No big deal if not, it just looks a little "clunky"
sometimes.

The % prefix is to distinguish between an ordinary variable named 'e'
or 'i' and the special constants. The letter 'i', in particular, is
very commonly used as an index variable, and it would be unacceptable
to forbid that.

Or do you mean on output only? On output, it would certainly be nice
to have %e and %i (and especially %pi) display nicely.

-s

[Ron Crummett]

Yeah, I just mean on output. I understand (from experience) the need
for the % prefix on the input side of things, but one of the nice things
about wxMaxima (in my opinion) is the 'pretty' output, and %e and %i
kind of diminish the look.

-Ron

Post by Stavros Macrakis

Post by Ron Crummett
You know, as long as we're having this discussion, I think it would be
great, if, at all possible, to remove the % prefix on other constants,
such as e and i. No big deal if not, it just looks a little "clunky"
sometimes.

The % prefix is to distinguish between an ordinary variable named 'e'
or 'i' and the special constants. The letter 'i', in particular, is
very commonly used as an index variable, and it would be unacceptable
to forbid that.
Or do you mean on output only? On output, it would certainly be nice
to have %e and %i (and especially %pi) display nicely.
-s

[Joel Salomon]

Post by Stavros Macrakis
The % prefix is to distinguish between an ordinary variable named 'e'
or 'i' and the special constants. The letter 'i', in particular, is
very commonly used as an index variable, and it would be unacceptable
to forbid that.
Or do you mean on output only? On output, it would certainly be nice
to have %e and %i (and especially %pi) display nicely.

IIRC, Mathematica uses a different font for what Maxima calls %e and
%i -- double struck, I believe.

--Joel

[Joel Salomon]

Post by Ron Crummett
You know, as long as we're having this discussion, I think it would be
great, if, at all possible, to remove the % prefix on other constants,
such as e and i. No big deal if not, it just looks a little "clunky"
sometimes.

and you'd distinguish between the imaginary unit and an index variabe how?

--Joel

[Mario Rodriguez]

Post by Andrej Vodopivec
I guess I could add an option to display ascii 2d as is
produced by maxima and then you could copy that.
Andrej

It would be great. I like maxima's ascii art and I find it very
comfortable to copy and paste maxima output to any simple text editor.

In any case, your program is great and avoids some problems regarding
xmaxima and firewalls.

On the other hand, the inclusion of wxmaxima in the main project makes
maxima increase the number of dependencies to build the system. But we
could benefit of the wxwidgets dependency, for example for interactive
graphics. I'm not an expert in this field, but it seems to me that
wxwidgets is a better graphical environment than tcl-tk.

By the way, there is a sourceforge project
http://sourceforge.net/projects/wxcl
to create Common Lisp bindings to the wxWidgets API.

Best wishes

[Robert Dodier]

hello mario,

Post by Mario Rodriguez
On the other hand, the inclusion of wxmaxima in the main project makes
maxima increase the number of dependencies to build the system.

i don't think merging wxmaxima into the maxima project
is necessary to make wxmaxima the default GUI --
making it the default GUI is just a packaging problem.

i'm pretty strongly opposed to merging the wxmaxima and maxima
projects. wxmaxima seems to be doing just fine as a separate
project and i can't see any benefit to either project to justify the
substantial trouble involved in merging them.

andrej, i would be interested to know your thoughts on this topic.

all the best,
robert

[Andrej Vodopivec]

Post by Robert Dodier
i don't think merging wxmaxima into the maxima project
is necessary to make wxmaxima the default GUI --
making it the default GUI is just a packaging problem.
i'm pretty strongly opposed to merging the wxmaxima and maxima
projects. wxmaxima seems to be doing just fine as a separate
project and i can't see any benefit to either project to justify the
substantial trouble involved in merging them.
andrej, i would be interested to know your thoughts on this topic.

I agree. It is better that the projects are separated and we just
coordinate on releases. If anyone wants developer access to wxmaxima
cvs, that is not a problem of course.

Andrej

[Vadim V. Zhytnikov]

Post by Andrej Vodopivec
I agree. It is better that the projects are separated and we just
coordinate on releases. If anyone wants developer access to wxmaxima
cvs, that is not a problem of course.

Hi Andrej!

I have some question related to more tight wxMaxima-Maxima integration.
As far as I understand wxMaxima packages private copy om Maxima HTML
documentation. Is it true or I'm mistaken? If so then maybe is a good
idea to change this behavior. I understand that searching for docs
in foreign package it is extra trouble. But I'm sure that we can
resolve all problems.

Best wishes,

Vadim

[Andrej Vodopivec]

Post by Vadim V. Zhytnikov
Hi Andrej!
I have some question related to more tight wxMaxima-Maxima integration.
As far as I understand wxMaxima packages private copy om Maxima HTML
documentation. Is it true or I'm mistaken? If so then maybe is a good
idea to change this behavior. I understand that searching for docs
in foreign package it is extra trouble. But I'm sure that we can
resolve all problems.

Currently wxMaxima includes private copy of documentation. It would be
possible to use HTML files installed by maxima. But maxima would need
to install three more index files which are used by help dialog. I use
a python script to generate them from maxima_toc.html file.

Andrej

[Vadim V. Zhytnikov]

Post by Andrej Vodopivec
Currently wxMaxima includes private copy of documentation. It would be
possible to use HTML files installed by maxima. But maxima would need
to install three more index files which are used by help dialog. I use
a python script to generate them from maxima_toc.html file.

No problem.
I see that their size is nothing compared to main documentation.
Is this python script available in wxMaxima CVS?

[Andrej Vodopivec]

Post by Vadim V. Zhytnikov
No problem.
I see that their size is nothing compared to main documentation.
Is this python script available in wxMaxima CVS?

Is is in wxMaxima cvs:

http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/wxmaxima/wxmaxima/data/create_index.py?rev=1.1&view=auto

If we decide to generate these with maxima documentation, the script
should be converted to perl since the build already depends on it (I
don't know perl so I can't do it).

Andrej

[Vadim V. Zhytnikov]

Post by Andrej Vodopivec
If we decide to generate these with maxima documentation, the script
should be converted to perl since the build already depends on it (I
don't know perl so I can't do it).

Yes. This was my idea too. I'll to do this.

[C Y]

Post by van Nek

Post by van Nek
Hello Andrej,
I would definitely prefer text output. This is the easiest and most

flexible to edit and format.

Post by van Nek
Isn't this possible?
All the best
Volker

Well I don't want to have another formating algorithm just for
copying
in ascii 2d. I guess I could add an option to display ascii 2d as is
produced by maxima and then you could copy that.
Andrej

I'm not really all that familiar with this on Windows, but maybe the
most intuitive way to go would be to have a "copy as text" option for
expressions which would just dump the 2-D ascii version of a given
expression to the clipboard. That leaves the display in "graphical"
mode and allows the more limited cut/paste of text when required.
Dunno if that's simple or not though - I seem to recall dimly that
tex/ascii formatting didn't respect local variables inside (say) an
ev() environment, so it might not be so simple to actually implement.

Cheers,
CY


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[Alasdair McAndrew]

I actually think that the best current interface for Maxima is imaxima under
emacs. All others have their faults: the next best looking is Maxima in
TeXmacs, except that it seems to run very slowly. For me, the perfect GUI
would have the look and feel of imaxima, without relying on the emacs engine
underneath. I think that using TeX to format and display mathematical
output is a very good idea - the output of xmaxima and wxmaxima has a
slightly ad hoc feel about it.

-Alasdair

[Barton Willis]

Other than lengthening the download time, I see no
reason to exclude a wxMaxima binary from the Maxima binary
distribution. Maybe the Maxima installation script could
ask the user for which interface(s) should be installed.

So if somebody wants to include a wxMaxima binary into
the Maxima binary distribuation, I say OK.
Barton